Bill Cosby: 'This Is How We Lost to the White Man'

I think that the teachings of Dr. Crosby should be a class in every school at every grade level. It is not about what who can do for you, but what you can do for yourself with help. Our school systems has lost this in their teaching for a large part.

When I was in Kindergraden in the 40's we as a class cleaned up the room before we left. We picked up items off the floor, threw away papers, cleaned paint cups and when we left the room chairs were up and the room was clean except the floor needed dust moping.

This was a teaching as well as a learning exercise and that continued throughout my school experience. What happened, today's kids pick up nothing inside or out and the thinking is leave it for the Janitor's that their job. Not what we should be teaching. Self reliance is the best lesson we can teach our children because in this new world order they are going to need it.

Comparing Cosby and Rev. Wright is like comparing the Dalai Lama to Kim Jung Il. Cosby is not about, "blaming the white man." You should read up on him before you group him with the likes of Reverend Wright.

Did you read that Cosby said? His message is not about blacks feeling sorry for themselves and blaming others, but about taking responsibility for their actions and advancing through strong family connections.

I wish what Cosby says would get Rev. Wright press. I wish he was the voice for the African-American community instead of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson.

zenhead

Stop making those charges and assumptions about Whites, and others, if you don't literally know you've been discriminated against by someone like that, or by their parents or grandparents. I've really had enough of that. It's not our fault.

I think what you don't see is that by the nature of being white you are at an advantage vs. a Black man (true, there are exceptions, but overall Whites have the advantage). And by the nature of them being Black or brown or Latino, they are at a disadvantage. And sorry, but you own that advantage and benefit from it, whether you asked for it or not, whether your great-grandparents were in the KKK or helped free slaves. And as such, you must acknowledge it and deal with it. No, it's not your fault, but it is your responsibility as a fellow human. Own up to it. But that doesn't give the Black man a free pass, as Cosby is pointing out. He's saying yes there is racism, but that shouldn't stop us from helping ourselves and our community to improve.

Blacks and Whites each have a responsibility here. Whites must acknowledge the problems that racism has caused and continues to cause, and the inherent advantage it gives to Whites in our society today. And Blacks must move beyond racism to pull their own community up and build from within, to take responsibility themselves for their own future. If each side takes on the responsibility for their current state and tries to improve things we can move forward. But if we simply continue to blame and deny we hurt everyone.

I wish what Cosby says would get Rev. Wright press.

Then maybe anti-Obama people should stop bringing up Wright every time Obama is mentioned.

Not likely, Cosby has not been whispering in Obama's ear for 22 years.

Absolutely right on, Space Guy. I would love to see Bill Cosby give this message to everyone ... our society, especially the younger generation, needs to hear the hope, inspiration, and vision that he offers ... and the loving kick in the butt.

Quite right. And that's one reason Bill Cosby has taken a lot of heat from some of the so-called leaders of the "civil rights community" wherein blaming "the Man" for every perceived ill is something of a received "religion".

Listening to him today brings to mind the message behind the Hardest Working Man In Show Business's message -- Papa Don't Don't Take No Mess.

Most definitely, Spaceguy. Mr. Cosby's message is important for all of us. He rocks! ;-)

Quite simple really. End of wwII until 70 or so were prosperous times for everybody.

Around 1970 is when we quit investing in the future and tried to have the government be our mother and father. Several trillion dollars later we have yet to figure out that this was the wrong path.

almost right, but what is the cause of the economic divide? a snapshot in time might suggest any number of reasons, primarily the state of the economy, but a generational examination suggests something very different. i believe that a combination of a few very effective operatives are at play, one of them being a lack of hope.

Try the oil embargo and Japanese companies using govt subsidies to undersell American car companies and steel companies on the world market and drive them out of business.

Lack of morality is a problem, if a person can hardly afford to provide their own basic needs, having
children will only add to the problem. Having children without planing or concern is irresponsible. Then abandoning the child and mother making them easy prey and recruits to violent gangs is reckless, immoral.

Voice of Reason, I like what you're saying. The breakdown of the family is the greatest cause of crime, poverty, illiteracy, violence, and addiction in contemporary American society. It is the root cause. And, this stems from a decreasing number of men willing to be men...and that's not just in the African American community, but across the board.

TB-

Expand that statement to ALL adults all across the board, not just men.

Whether we realize it or not, or like it or not, every child each one of us comes into contact with is watching us, and trying to understand the world from what they see us do and say.

We are ALL role-models, even without our own children.

And the little rascals never stop watching and learning.....like squirrels.

Your response most closely mirrors my sentiment, "Dr. Cosby" would be better suited to hold the mic while his wife Camille does the talking. It's also infuriating to read him continuing to attempt to be cute with that atrocious pound cake story in relation to police murders in the black community, particularly after what happened to Sean Bell on his wedding day in NYC! Since Cosby can't even put enough syllables together to pronounce the names of the children in our community, maybe he should focus his time on at least writing a new speech instead of that tired old mess he's been running for the past few years.

Why does the fact that Bill Cosby's eloquent and compassionate message is starting to loudly resonate within the black community and across America scare and upset you so much?

Dr. Cosby is one of the few black high profile people who realize that the short comings of people are hardly to be blamed on others. That it is change from within and a change of work ethic and values that is what is in need. That you don't need to place blame on others and demand retribution for things that didn't even happen to you. As I said before, he says things that make most people angry, then again people don't want to hear about improving from within to better themselves, they want to hear about the way the government can change to help them. They want to hear Michelle Obama talk about taking pie for them.

:)

[Seed clipped to Black Folks]

What is logical about referring to equality as an "abstract notion," I bet Cosby would never, ever say that to a non-black woman. The rallies, protests and pleas have far more impact than Cosby can, obviously, ever know, as they are used to organize people towards that very equality that he turns his nose up at. Numbers of people are what makes change, not further assimilation into something that's not beneficial to the vast majority of people in the first place. That's just one example of the type of nonsense that upsets some black people, for all those who are busy pontificating about why we all are not applauding him.

i'm not picking on you anymore than any other Cosby lover here, River, but moreso the portion that you quoted.

What is logical about referring to equality as an "abstract notion," I bet Cosby would never, ever say that to a non-black woman. The rallies, protests and pleas have far more impact than Cosby can, obviously, ever know, as they are used to organize people towards that very equality that he turns his nose up at. Numbers of people are what makes change, not further assimilation into something that's not beneficial to the vast majority of people in the first place. That's just one example of the type of nonsense that upsets some black people, for all those who are busy pontificating about why we all are not applauding him.

Watch Jerry Springer for a few days and tell me that what Cosby says does not apply to more than just the black race.

Do you seriously doubt that if the vast majority of black men took up Cosby/Farrakan/Malcomx/Booker T. Washington's call for personal responsibility that the nation as a whole would not be transformed for the better? I would add that the white race needs to get its act together in this vein as well. Fewer lawyers and more scientists and engineers.

Mass movements do little to change society in positive ways, individuals doing things en-mass does.

Nope, not gonna watch Jerry Springer, but I absolutely do understand that the call for personal responsibility within families is a necessary one. I also understand that while on the surface Cosby could be seen as simply calling for personal responsibility, he is actually attempting to force our square pegs into the round hole of some Leave it to Beaver head trip he's pushing, and those that can't get with his program are to be ridiculed and vilified in his white-user-friendly, cornball style. Again, assimilate, pull up your pants, cut your hair, name your babies Heather and Tom, speak the king's english, and let the chips fall where they may!

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last comment, are you talking about a talented 10th or something like that? I know that you can't believe that mass movements do little to change society in positive ways when we just observed the assassination of MLK, Jr., because you've certainly heard of the Montgomery bus boycott.

white-user-friendly, cornball style. Again, assimilate, pull up your pants, cut your hair, name your babies Heather and Tom, speak the king's english, and let the chips fall where they may!

Is it assimilation to get an education? I have seen people, both white and black say that getting an education is "playing the man's game" when it is the only true path out of poverty.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by your last comment, are you talking about a talented 10th or something like that?

Nope, that is elitist. I am thinking about a friend of mine, an older black gentleman who was a janitor at our university. He worked his entire life at two jobs, remained married, raised five children who he put through college and who all became professionals. He delayed getting surgery for a football injury that killed his college football career until his last kid was out of college. He is a deacon in his church, a faithful father and husband, and a pillar of his community. He is one of my top ten most admired people that I know.

I do acknowledge the necessity of the mass movement that Dr. King and others built as it was necessary at the time but again, it was him as an individual that brought it about. Just as it was those two girls who walked through the door at the University of Alabama in 1963. Just as it was A.G. Gaston that built many black businesses in Birmingham and many others.

CJ re: 16.1

"The rallies, protests and pleas have far more impact than Cosby can, obviously, ever know, as they are used to organize people towards that very equality that he turns his nose up at. "

If those rallies and protests have so much impact.....why are we all arguing about the same issues 40 years later?

And what kind of 'equality' are you talking about? The equality of anger? Because that's what's holding people back on both sides.

Re: 16.4

Assimilation is not the same as getting as educated as we possibly can, in as many ways as we possibly can. I think your argument re: mass movements vs. individuals acting en masse doesn't work with the MLK example because he couldn't have pulled off a bus boycott without the "others" you reference actually numbering the vast majority of black bus riders and their supporters. The children who integrated those schools were also the beneficiaries of those same mass movements that outlawed legal segregation. Those who are struggling against injustices today are also the beneficiaries of rallies, letter writing campaigns, phone banks and other organizing efforts. The entrepreneurs you reference are another topic entirely.

I think that it started with a fiesty little lady named Rosa Parks.

An individual who changed the world.

Re: 16.5

Anger is not what is holding anybody back from equality, try institutionalized racism, redlining, gentrification, generational poverty, and societal marginalization, for starters. And no, it is not your business to correct anything that you don't see as a problem, so you can just skip merrily along and have a nice day. I am definitely not the one to educate white people about what you should know about other peoples as citizens of this country and the world, like the song says, if you don't know me by now, you will never, ever know me!

I responded to this post because I believe that Cosby appeals to our baser instincts, as though blacks should treat those others of us who haven't made it out of the ghettoes physically and mentally are some sort of pariah to be scolded, rebuked, and even joked about. In this way he gives permission for he and others of his ilk to continue to cluck their tongues in disgust and holler about how we all should have be able to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, rather than encouraging his audiences to put some time and energy towards helping impact people's lives for the better however they are best able to.

rather than encouraging his audiences to put some time and energy towards helping impact people's lives for the better however they are best able to.

Funny, that is what it sounds to me like he is saying. He says to stop waiting for other people to change (because they probably wont) instead, lets bring about our own change. Dead beat dads need to stop being dead beats and help take care of their families, Young girls should stop getting pregnant so they are shouldered with a family once their lover ends up being a dead beat dad.. etc etc..

Look after yourself, do what ever you can to improve your lot in life. In the process you'll be influencing those around you and helping the entire community improve.

Will these efforts remove

try institutionalized racism, redlining, gentrification, generational poverty, and societal marginalization, for starters

Nope. They might help break the cycle of generational poverty but they won't have any impact on instituionalized racism or societal marginalization by itself. Sadly, white folks have to work out their racism for themselves - no amount of Black protestation is going to change the mind of a white racist (just like no amount of effort by a white person is going to change a Black racist)

Though, of course, if all poor people (regardless of skin color) were to find a way to get out of poverty I suppose it would have an impact on gentrification and societal marginalization as well.

Here's a link that is worth a read (forgive me if it is linked elsewhere):

DR BILL COSBY SPEAKS
at the 50th Anniversary commemoration
of the Brown vs Topeka Board of Education
Supreme Court Decision

http://www.eightcitiesmap.com/transcript_bc.htm

It does seem to me that he expressly, and repeatedly calls on his audience to help impact people's lives for the better -- to "take it to the streets" and confront issues and bring improvement. The key point that he makes is that many are squandering the rights that should be celebrated and taken utmost advantage of, not scoffed at, mocked or ignored. I don't find Cosby, his opinions, manner, or specific statements and recommendations to be "base" at all.

It is true that he calls for a return to the use of embarrassment as a motivator. While this is a sin in liberal ideology, it is not elsewhere, and does not represent "uncaring" but "caring". Both caring for the individual that is "shamed" and the group or culture that stands to gain from provoking a better behavior from the individual. I don't think the use of shame to motivate children is base (he mostly addresses children and parenting, or lack thereof). He does not criticize anyone in the community that is trying to learn, and having difficulty, nor anyone that is trying to advance, and finding unfair opposition. He criticizes those who have decided they don't want to learn, and are squandering the sacrifice that others had to go through for this opportunity to be available. One may certainly dispute the efficacy of "shaming", but do not misinterpret it as anything but truly caring for people. It should also not be forgotten, that for there to be shame, one must first have a sense of morality, of right and wrong. I interpret Cosby's remarks to also hearken back to a time of right and wrong... perhaps his most provocative and controversial suggestion ;)

As for whether the people he specifically criticizes are "a pariah to be scolded, rebuked, and even joked about". I am not entirely certain this is an accurate description of his attitude or actions, but perhaps it is. I think this is probably a fair assessment, though the characterization the phrase gives to his motives is not fair. I think also, that he doesn't desire to make anyone an outcast, but to draw them back into the fold, to help them return to being productive for themselves and their community, their family and their children. It should be noted also, that he does not limit his criticism to "lowly social outcasts", nor to those "stuck in the ghettos", but rather:

Basketball players, multimillionaires can't write a paragraph. Football players, multimillionaires, can't read. Yes. Multimillionaires. Well, Brown V Board of Education, where are we today? It's there. They paved the way. What did we do with it. The white man, he's laughing, got to be laughing. 50 percent drop out, rest of them in prison.

I also don't assume, that because he is focusing on some specific problems, that he necessarily assumes that no other problems exist. I don't assume that because he is calling for black responsibility, that he is necessarily pretending that racism is non-existent. I think he is simply focusing on what he sees as the most prominent or endemic problems at this time, of deficits in parenting, education, responsibility, sense of right & wrong (hence potential for shame over wrong actions), and community enforcement of these cultural standards.

CJ re:16.8

" And no, it is not your business to correct anything that you don't see as a problem, so you can just skip merrily along and have a nice day."

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't invent words to put into my mouth, especially when they express an attitude I don't carry.

And yes, anger is part of the issue, your intense reaction just proves my point. People on all sides become so angry so much of the time, all they see is a red haze...not possible solutions, and not any possible validity of any differing opinion. Like Cosby's.

Anger may rally the masses, and gather like minds for a march, and temporarily grab the attention of the mass media....but then what? What has changed for the better?

It must be followed up by some real ideas which are actually put into practice....by people who can put logical thought to the problem instead of short-lived passion.

That takes time, dedication and personal responsibility.

That may not fit well, or be properly politically correct for a sociology thesis, but it's valid.

Re: 16.11

You previously wrote to me: "And what kind of 'equality' are you talking about? The equality of anger? Because that's what's holding people back on both sides."

DR, I can't imagine what kind of response you really expected by acting like you can't understand what I mean when I use the word "equality." You seemed to indicate that you don't see equality as a problem, and I just don't feel the need to explain something as simple as that. You want to talk about anger, but the points I've tried to make can't be narrowed down to an emotion like anger, it's not about a mood or a behavior that needs to be somehow brightened up.

Also, activists who participate in demonstrations are generally not moving off of short-lived passions at all. They understand very well about ideals, the realization of which they are willing to organize around in a variety of ways, with rallies usually being only one of them. These types of activities call attention to serious issues that very easily could be swept under the rug while educating others to the necessity for change in whatever area is being addressed.

Re: 16.9

I agree with a lot of what you said, but not your point below:

"Look after yourself, do what ever you can to improve your lot in life. In the process you'll be influencing those around you and helping the entire community improve."

That's taking the easy way out, IMO. I believe that we must reach back and pull someone else up, not stomp them down even further. To interact on whatever level we're able to. Not part of the solution, part of the problem.

That's taking the easy way out, IMO. I believe that we must reach back and pull someone else up, not stomp them down even further. To interact on whatever level we're able to. Not part of the solution, part of the problem.

I'm not sure how you got "stomp them down even further" out of what I said. I suppose if you focus on the most negative ways of "do whatever you can to improve your lot in life" you might get that impression. I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I think you should do the right things to improve your lot in life.

And I don't think it is the easy way out at all. For most poor people trying to improve their own life is pretty damn hard. Working multiple jobs, trying to go to night school, raising kids and actually participating in their lives while instilling solid values in them, etc. That isn't easy - not by a long shot.

Hell, just the raising kids - and doing a good job of it - is a hard enough job in itself without adding in the extra work hours and the potential studying; by that point a person barely has time to sleep let alone find some even "harder way out" whatever that is.

Now, once you've improved your situation and you don't have to work 2 jobs - or you don't need to go night school anymore, or whatever the circumstances are - I am not advocating you abandon your community - sure you might move to a safer neighborhood - but you still help others who are still struggling to try and make their road a little smoother; but the recipient of the help still needs to be willing to work hard to improve their own situation. Heck, the climb up is one of the hardest things someone can undertake - but it is worth it. It's worth it to me to know my kids are safer, it's worth it to me to have the free time on the weekends to spend with my kids in leisure, and it's worth it to me that my kids know how hard it is and don't want to slide back down and have to do it all over again. And it's nice to be in a situation where I can actually help others - either physically, mentally, or (in some cases) financially.

CJ re: 16.12 Anger is a great leveler......it blinds all it's victims so that they aren't open to ideas and opinions that don't fall into line with their own. They become distracted by nitpicking. They stand ready to rabidly pounce on anything that sounds like it might possibly differ from their ideas and chew them to pieces like a hawk waiting for some prey.

And it gives some people false justification....for not even trying. For not thinking. For not learning. For not growing. It's just one more hurdle; there's enough already.

One of the ways to best an opponent in a contest...is to make them angry. So they aren't thinking clearly. They're distracted.

I'm certainly not talking about 'mood brightening', and you know that.

I do understand your points in 16.13.

"I believe that we must reach back and pull someone else up, not stomp them down even further. To interact on whatever level we're able to. Not part of the solution, part of the problem." But no single approach works, and to deny Dr. Cosby's approach to the problem, leaves a lot of young men and women out of the equation who haven't been reached by any other method. Not everybody responds to a hand that's held out to them. Nor does everybody respond to a push from behind. Some will never respond, sadly so. There are too many young men and women out there not being reached by existing approaches up to now. We need ways to reach them too.

Dr Cosby IS 'interacting' and IS 'Part of the solution', and whether you like his approach or not, I'm sure you agree with that.

But we can't all be a Dr. Cosby, and sometimes for the rest of us the best way we know of to help....is simply to try and make our own lives stand in a small way for how people should behave and treat each other......sometimes you have to wait until another is ready....to reach UP and FORWARD.

Re: 16.14 -- No need to apologize, I should have been clearer when I wrote "not stomp them down even further." I was referring to Cosby with that part. Many people are able to combine raising families with doing a community activity for some portion of their time, and I think the problem is the dearth of grassroots community organizing to allow people to find a way to do something concrete within whatever parameters they're able to do it. Too many non-profits are in it just for the grant $$$, but there are some who are actually trying unique and creative solutions besides recreational activities. Many times the person whose family is working to impact people's lives will also be greatly enriched by doing even a minimal amount of community work.

Re: 16.15 -- I have a fundamental disagreement with you based on the same reasoning as above, and because I don't believe that you can feel the love in anything Cosby is putting out there. He is demanding that we completely deny our selves and become Stepfordized. In fact, after reading the transcript provided by sirmonkey in 16.10, I am even more disgusted by Cosby's shenanigans than ever. There's no way I can get on board with that type of unfunny buffoonery, I don't believe in those types of attacks or "embarrassment" from an enemy, so I definitely don't accept it as a way to uplift our communities in crisis.

Just to clarify, when I wrote: "... I don't believe in those types of attacks or 'embarrassment' from an enemy, so I definitely don't accept it as a way to uplift our communities in crisis.", I'm not referring to Cosby or anyone here as an enemy. What I mean to say is that if I wouldn't accept that treatment from an enemy, I wouldn't accept it from a friend.

CJ

re:16.16

"I have a fundamental disagreement with you".....

Yup....I see that. You see him as attacking, humiliating and holding back. (I'm not trying to bait, insult or attack you here).

I see him as using the tools he knows best (entertainment), to reach out the way HE thinks is best, to a mass audience who are currently being reached by vile influences.

Personally, I've always found it easier to take 'embarrassment' or 'attacks' from a friend or family member......far easier than from an enemy or stranger. Because I'll more likely listen to that friend or family member.....I know they have my best interests at heart even if I don't agree with them. (no, I didn't take your words to infer you thought Cosby was an enemy).

Doesn't mean it doesn't still hurt....sometimes down to the core....But that's what friends and family are for....to love you with what they believe is the truth. To take the chance of being screamed at and being outright rejected....and take it...and keep speaking. That's all he's doing.

Do you honestly believe Cosby is trying to "Stepfordize" the African American community?

What do you mean by that? Encouraging good behavior, literacy, personal responsibility among at-risk youth is "Stepfordizing"?

A father who lost his son to violence, who is now giving the remainder of his own life to speak out against irresponsible behavior is "Stepfordizing"?

I find your interpretation of Cosby's message very disturbing, but maybe I am misunderstanding you. Can you clarify?

I absolutely believe that racism is pervasive and prevalent among white people.

I will not argue this belief. However, from personal experience, racism is certainly not a character defect exclusive to any single race. If it were then as a junior high student I wouldn't have gotten jumped by groups of both Blacks and Whites just because my mom fell in love with someone not of our pigmentation. This was during the mid '70s less than a 20 minute drive from Washington, D.C.

The illness of racism respects nothing, not even love.

I agree with that, but blacks have not had the political clout that whites have had. This makes it a little different. I am certainly sorry that that happened to you and a lot of others. I think what we are working through now is different than what it was in the 70s.

I don't disagree with you, Spaceguy. But, what about outlaw country? Are we (white Americans) defined as a race by country music. Personally I don't mind being associated with Johnny Cash, but he shot a man in Reno just to watch him die. I only mention this because we have to be careful not to identify an entire race of people with a popular music format. Certainly jazz is one of the most important American innovations and contributions, and it was undeniably largely created by black people (credit where credit is due). However, I still don't think that jazz defines the race. Nor does rap (gaenkstah or other form). Of course, the majority of black people I know have advanced degrees or are working towards college degrees, so maybe my view is skewed.

Heck country music was born out of the wildness of my Scots Irish forbearers who have had more centuries of oppression and war than just about any other group on the planet. I have no problem with that.

I never said that Jazz or Gansta rap defined anything except for a certain period of time and indeed that was implicit in the definition.

I only mention this because we have to be careful not to identify an entire race of people with a popular music format.

Please, notice that I never claimed that you said anything. Instead, I stated the "we" have to be careful in regard to defining.

Personally I don't mind being associated with Johnny Cash, but he shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

To be fair, Johnny never shot anyone. ;-) That was just part of the song Folsom Prison Blues.

Yeah, but he was a drug user, God bless him. The only reason I brought any of this up... We, Scotch-Irish are sitting around talking about black America, and the conversation turns to rap music. I merely wanted to point out the obvious, gangster rap culture, even hip-hop culture are not exclusively black, and it certainly doesn't typify what all of black culture is like. The media certainly capitalizes on that. Hey I am glad Cosby preaches personal responsibility, but I also think its a little sketchy for some white folks to jump behind him because they think all black people are like the gangstas they see on MTV. Now, I certainly have read enough posts from spaceguy and SI to realize that they are not stupid. I just think it is important to be cognizant of the danger of perpetuating a stereotype. It is one thing for Cosby to say these things and a very different thing for a white person to say these things. We also need to be preaching a little responsibility to the white kids, too, by the way.

I think Cosby's comments on personal responsibility resonate with most people in regards to society at large and not just one cultural segment of it. As I read the article I barely even notice his focus is on the Black community. In my experience there are too many people, in all of the socio-economic brackets, who just don't take responsibility for their own actions and think the world owes them a silver spoon.

The truth is the world doesn't owe any of us anything. We have to work for everything. I don't even mean just financial success - though that is a nice comfort to have - but also respect, safety, quality education, etc.

New Draper:
I'm sure you recognized by my last name alone that my family is part of the Scotch-Irish group that inhabited states like throughout the South, my family's being Kentucky.

America's got a problem and that's because we've stopped being the nation we used to be. There's some irresponsibility in the black community but I don't feel it's for me to cheer Bill Cosby on because I'm not black. Each ethnic community has problems particular to it in this country and they have to deal with those. IMO I need to focus on keeping my own group in check and not take black, Hispanic & Latino or any other group's inventory. It's Cosby's place to talk to his people as a respected member of their community, not mine.

Here is the interesting part about bringing up the Scots Irish. How many black people know the first thing about the struggles of my ancestors? If you really knew that history, how would it effect your view of your own struggles? Braveheart only begins to scratch the surface of that history, is not really history but brings some of the aspects of that history to light.

Every race and or ethnic group has their stories of woe, but if you really look, there is a reason that there are 40 million of us in the USA rather than remaining in Scotland or Ireland.

Yeah I know. I am a little bit more of a mutt (Austrian, Welsh, and English thrown in with the Irish). My name comes from a Jonathon Swift pseudonym, for Christ sakes. The only point I was trying to make is that we need to be careful about stereotyping black people. And, in fact, my views are much more along the lines of what finalcut had to say. The reason why I think we need to be careful with stereotyping (and I think gangster rap, which has become a parody of itself at this point, represents a cultural stereotype) is that we tend to miss the point when we do that. The point is that cultural issues are incredibly complex, and the models that were politically necessary twenty or thirty years ago are changing.

I am also part Scot-Irish, and I do love Johnny Cash.

Here's the thing about "Folsom Prison Blues." Yes, it does say, "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die." And then, the next line tells the rest of the story: "When I hear that lonesome whistle, I hang my head and cry." The song is about pain and remorse and consequences of violent living.

It's not a pro-violence song, and most of his songs give a moral lesson ... "the wages of sin," as it were.

This is strange, I was listening to the "Johnny Cash at San Quentin" album when I clicked on this thread. How serendipitous.

Hey, Tom. How you been? Excellent and salient point in defense of a great musician and a very cool white guy. I kind of wish I hadn't gone there at this point. But since we are here, there are definitely rap songs that do the same thing that Cash's song does. There are also positive rap songs. Here's the thing. Cosby comes out and kind of trashes the behavior of some black people and points to some cultural elements as evidence of his argument in an effort to encourage improvement (I assume). Certain white people then get behind Cosby because it confirms their fears that thuggish black men, directed by that gangsta rap are wrecking the nation (this is of course hyperbole). There is a danger in that vilification of a popular cultural form, though. For one thing, think about professional wrestling. Does it define our country? Do all the people who watch it believe it's real? It certainly says something about America, but it doesn't define it. What, though, can we latch on to to define the white race in this way? The KKK, maybe? I don't think that kind of comparison is relevant to what Cosby does. That's the danger I am talking about. Probably more white kids are listening to gangster rap than black kids at this point, but Cosby and others reinforce it as a defining element of black culture. Cosby can be critical of African-Americans (whether they agree with him or not) in a way that white people should not, plain and simple. I do not mean to insinuate anything or insult anyone in this particular thread. I just wanted to open up the discussion about the danger of such an argument fueling white misconceptions about black culture. As far as Braveheart goes, well I am sorry for all those tortured Scotsmen who now own car dealerships in Scranton, but they can get some catharsis every Saturday at the WWF. Walk the line, my friend.

Probably more white kids are listening to gangster rap than black kids at this point,

Very true, and a very bad thing, as it reinforces bad stereotypes of blacks among white gangsta wannabes.

but Cosby and others reinforce it as a defining element of black culture.

It has hijacked an element of black culture in a very negative and influential way. Ironic, given that a lot of rap is marketed and sold by white moguls. It's sort of like the modern day minstrel show.

Cosby can be critical of African-Americans (whether they agree with him or not) in a way that white people should not, plain and simple. I do not mean to insinuate anything or insult anyone in this particular thread. I just wanted to open up the discussion about the danger of such an argument fueling white misconceptions about black culture.

Point taken. We should not fall prey to stereotypes. And, more people - black and white - should speak out against the influence of negative rap music. Al Sharpton and I agree on this.

As far as Braveheart goes, well I am sorry for all those tortured Scotsmen who now own car dealerships in Scranton, but they can get some catharsis every Saturday at the WWF. Walk the line, my friend.

LOL, yep, gotta walk the line. Right now, I'm listening to Cash's rendition of Tom Petty's "Southern Accents."

I goofed trying to post this reply please diregard it or delete it. Thank you.

Settling the lawsuit is in no way an admission of any guilt, and none should be inferred. Celebs are constantly being stalked, slandered, and sued, and they often settle out of court just to make the problem go away.

Cosby may not be perfect, but he has a message that is resonating with many African Americans and indeed, Americans of all races and backgrounds.

There's no "may." Cosby is not perfect. Period. Nor was Booker T. Washington's and his "Cast down your buckets" 1895 speech. Within the African American community, we've had a history so-called leaders who've lambasted the community on moral grounds. Yet are not particularly highly moral in their personal life.

Come on, within the multitude of comments I'm the only one questioning Cosby's moral authority? That should be odd. However, experience has proven to me that it's common within the African American community to give people like Cosby a free ride to insult people without questioning his behavior. You can chose to believe what you want about the lawsuit and turn a blind eye to it's merits. Yet, I doubt the African American parents of the women who've accused Cosby of molesting them would share your opinion.

I like what Sharon Osbourne said and how she defended her children. I would be rejoiceful if more African American parents stood up for their children like, she did. My dad was no fan of Cosby. I'm glad he taught me to think for myself and how to be my own moral authority.

If you are your own moral authority, what happens to you when you make a mistake or you are wrong? Or does that ever happen to you?

In the meantime, dump on Cosby all you want, but does his message have any validity? If not, why is it resonating so deeply with so many people?

If I'm wrong I apologize. Being your own moral authority doesn't mean you're morally superior. It means I don't steal because I'll get caught. I don't steal because my parents and experience have taught me that nothing is worth stealing. It's karma, baby.

I implied Cosby was an a--hole and I apologize. However, what I presented about the molestations is true. You can Googgle "cosby sex scandal" and review the results yourself.

Does his message have any validity? For me his message doesn't resonant. I was not raised that way. None of my friends were either. I appear to me as if Cosby is perpetuating the stereotypical ghettoized image of black Americans as if it can universal applied to everyone that doesn't live up to his standards.

Why Cosby message resonate with so many people is to some degree the same reason why Barack Obama sat in the pews listening to Rev. Wright anti-American diatribe. I was not raised in the traditional black church. However, a trait I've observed with those who have is a strange tendency to stop thinking critically when people speak with Christian religious overtones. I'm exaggerating but it's almost like folks go into a trance. If you've not witnessed this phenomenon I doubt if I can explain it to you.

I could see if the people the Cosby's message is resonating took his message to heart. But I doubt that is the case. Since Cosby "Pound Cake" speech has there been any reduction in out of wedlock birth rates? Any increase in child nutrition? If Cosby message was truly resonating shouldn't we be able to measure its positive impact?

Bottom line my point is this. The black community would be better served if black parent stood up to hypocrites like Cosby. And stop falling for his warmed over Garvyism. "How we lost to the white man", oh please, give me a break.

You make some interesting points Kokayi. As far as the media is concerned, the protrayal of black people is overwhelmingly negative (and I use negative here relative to the discussion as those social behaviors that are deemed distasteful by this thread). Now I don't think multiple pregnancies out of wedlock, deadbeat dads, shootings, robbings, lack of self-respect, disrespect to women, irresponsilibty with child care and sex, drug use, general thuggery, et al are good things. But, none of these things are black things. None of these things are exclusively part of black culture. There are plenty of white people, particularly in my neck of the woods that think they are, but they are not. My problem with the Cosby debate here is not that he is not morally worthy of making those statements (although your point is certainly valid) it is that many white people feel justified in in a prejudiced view (primarily out of ignorance rather than spite). I also know that while some rap songs kind of champion that kind of behavior it is not the cause of it, nor is it the only media form that celbrates sex and violence. I like that you bring up some differing view points from the black community (i.e. the black church or the kind of Dubois educational stance or the many black people that don't adhere or fit into any cultural philosophy). Some of the responses I have read in this thread suggest to me that there is a racial ignorance in this country that has not diminished. The idea that just because a yound man wears his pants around his arse makes him a thug is ludicrous. The sad thing is that some of the white folks making these assumptions were the ones arguing that long hair didn't make them a social pariah (sign, sign, everywhere a sign). It is nice to hear from an African-American person regarding some of these issues. Thank you for chiming in.

NewDraper, we're in alignment.

This is very often a very difficult topic to broach within the black community because there's so much internal self-hatred. I'm black, and one of the most difficult attitudes I have to overcome is internal racism. That inferiority complex that gets expressed in what I call the "N* ggers Ain't Sh*t" (NAS) attitudes we as black people present to ourselves. It's a surprisingly common attitude within our community that all blacks folks are by default "n* ggers" and are therefor worthless. It's the type of stuff expressed "in the barbershops and around the kitchen table" like Obama said in the More Perfect Union speech.

What disappoints me about Mr. Cosby's "Pound Cake" speeches is it follows the tone of the NAS crap I hear so often within some black only social situations. It literally drives me up the wall. What gets me is folk nearly never use any sort of "I-statements" about their out of wedlock children, or how they leave their children alone unattended. It's always prefaced with what "People" need to do. In other words, its nearly always third party oriented. A prefect example is contained in the title of this article "How we Lost to the White Man." Who is this, "We?" Who is this so called "White Man?" So according to Mr. Cosby I'm to believe the entire black community is under the thumb of a single white man? That utter BS. But due to some strange black cultural lexicon Cosby statements is accepted without any critical evaluation of it's merits. That's what bother me!

I know for a fact no white man has defeated me. I know that the problems Cosby is attempting to highlight in his speeches are societal ills. African Americans alone cannot solve these problems. Within our history it been proven that these race based solutions are highly ineffective. More that likely the leaders of these moral crusades are themselves corrupt and do more harm than good within the community. Like black anti-gay preachers who preached to their congregations to vote against homosexual unions and for George Bush in 2004 when perhaps up to a third if not more their choirs could be gay. We can also look upon history and direct consequences of leaders like Booker T. Washington, W. E. D. Dubois, Marcus Garvey. and Elijah Muhammad. In each case they prescribe some race based solution that was supposed to change the world if only black folks got our so-called acts together ( i.e.; be more like the leader's super-ego of himself). Although M. L. King had his issues he didn't confine his morality doctrine to blacks only.

You're right about how the media uses these stereotypes. It's probably why Bill O'Reily was so shocked that black people in Harlem could use forks and knives. This is the kind of nonsense, I genuinely believe Mr. Cosby perpetuates in his speeches.

We can also look upon history and direct consequences of leaders like Booker T. Washington, W. E. D. Dubois, Marcus Garvey. and Elijah Muhammad. In each case they prescribe some race based solution that was supposed to change the world if only black folks got our so-called acts together ( i.e.; be more like the leader's super-ego of himself). Although M. L. King had his issues he didn't confine his morality doctrine to blacks only.

MLK is one of my heroes because he was able to navigate treachery from all sides (at least for a while). I think America owes a lot to him, and it saddens me when I hear people speak ill of him. But, Washington, Dubois, Elijah Muhammad, The Black Panther movement, Farrakhan, Jackson, Sharpton have all had political clout for a reason, and like them or not, agree with them or not, they have presented models born of our society and of some kind of political necessity. Where you and I diverge a bit is that I think Cosby is coming from a legitimate place (whether he is worthy or not of his position), but I don't like some of the lines of argument that open up and the way that some white people claim them.

Any culture or nationality struggles to maintain its identity while at the same time assimilating. It is a puzzling and interesting question to understand where the line is drawn for people. (i.e. I wear green on St. Patricks but am I going to support the IRA?) Another interesting question is at what point does pride become nationalism or racism? What separates African-American history from these questions is that well into the twentieth century, solidarity was a means of survival (and perhaps still is). I think that model is changing, but how that changes is really up to black Americans. I, more and more, find that history fascinating, but I am aware that I am merely an observer or appreciator. I have no place in that debate. As for my own prejudices and racial tensions, I continue to work at it on a personal level, and I am really getting to a point where skin color is not the initial thing I notice about a person. It is nice. I have come along way.

Where you and I diverge a bit is that I think Cosby is coming from a legitimate place (whether he is worthy or not of his position), but I don't like some of the lines of argument that open up and the way that some white people claim them.

I'm slightly puzzled by your use of the term "legitimate." I don't think that's what you're trying to say. If so, then there is a divergence. For the sake of brevity, I'll substitute "authentic" for "legitimate" and the divergence nearly disappears. I believe Cosby was authentically expressing his personal concerns about the people he blames for the ills of the black community.

What I'm attempting to communicate is we all need to critically evaluate all messages disseminated into the community. Sometimes especially with the type of message Cosby is presenting, we tend to gloss over factual matters (Have we really "lost?") and let ourselves be swayed by sentiment (victimhood) and emotion (anger). However, ultimately the listener doesn't apply (internalize) these "sermons" to themselves. Instead they use (externalize) these sermons to judge, criticize, belittle and dehumanized others. This is how I view Cosby's "Pound Cake" speech. I could dichotomize and provide counter-arguments to everything he said but I believe we're already in agreement about how his statements can be misused.. You said: "I don't like some of the lines of argument that open up and the way that some white people claim them." My only enrichment to your statement is some black people to use these arguments to practice black "classism"

That's not my issue anyway. My predominant reservation with Cosby's speech is he blames all the societal ills of the black community stem from "the lower economic and lower middle economic people are [not*] holding their end in this deal." [See transcript] That statement, to use your term, isn't a legitimate statement. I mean come-on For example, Winton Marsales has children "born out of" wedlock. Consequently, why isn't Cosby calling Winton out? That's my concern. He's picking on those who are least able to defend themselves and blaming them at a NAACP gathering predominately attended by middle to upper class blacks.

I guess chief complaint about Cosby is I don't believe he's being genuine about what he alleges to be so concerned about and says speciously spiteful things to get laughs. He's an entertainer I'm fine with that. What I find distasteful, is his "Pound Cake" speech being hailed as like the words of an enlightened sage. He ain't no Obama! Obama, like MLK understood, hope is a more effective motivator.

"DR BILL COSBY SPEAKS" is the title of page with the speech transcript commonly referred to as the "Pound Cake" speech. That title sounds surprisingly similar to the title of the book "Malcolm X Speaks"

It's been fun discussion this topic with you. I enjoy and respect the points of view you have shared.